Normally I always forget why I still keep thinking about switching back to Windows. Today was a great reminder. Linux can be frustrating. This post is somewhat about awareness and partly about me learning about other peoples experiences. I updated my CachyOS as usual. There were some system packages upgraded and I got the notification to reboot. Figuring I’d do it later I left after some time and the PC went to sleep. Upon returning the screen stayed black. Even upon forced reboot. Remembering I was using Limine with BTRFS snapshots I tried multiple previous snapshots but to no avail. I remember this happened before. So now I face another reinstall… This and having to dive into the deep end of terminal commands to get drivers, programs or games working can be quite frustrating. I understand why people are turned off and go back to Windows…
Onto NixOS for me. A big dive but it seems very stable which might be just what i need. I feel like the philosophy of NixOS combined with a graphical store to install programs and what not seems like a great solution.
What would your ultimate distro be like?
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Fedora w/ KDE always just feels like home to me, I like the defaults so I don’t spend much time mucking around, and it feels stable and reliable.
This will sound like heresy to some, but get away from the bleeding edge. You probably don’t need the absolute latest version of every little thing. It can feel cool knowing you know how to fix a borked install but actually having to do so sucks. Dump the hype and get to something stable for your daily driver. If you want to experiment, do it on another drive/machine. Building a custom rocketship is cool, but you should probably build it without breaking the truck you use to go get parts.
I’m going to call this another vote for Debian
I was gonna say the same thing.
For most beginners who just want their PC to work, the obvious choice should be Mint for older hardware, and Universal Blue’s Fedora-based images (Bluefin or Aurora depending on the preferred desktop).
Of course, since OP mentioned NixOS that is an option as well. But it should be the stable version, and it is not beginner friendly like the other two.
I honestly wish someone had said something similar when I made my switch. I love bazzite, and I’ve made it work for myself. But even as a barely tech literate guy, it can still be a struggle, an even just trying to pacman or install something sends me down a rabbit hole of things I dont understand.
Anyway, it works, but I wish I had gone with something more stable with far more documentation.
I should have clarified that the list above only makes sense if you just want your machine to work because atomic distros aren’t great to tinker with (except NixOS), but let’s face it, moist people are not tinkerers do what they need is exactly what atomic distros offer.
I use Garuda, and it hasn’t borked for me in years. I update it about once a week.
Been on Garuda since September and it’s fantastic. Surprised it doesnt get more love around here.
The one criticism that I felt had some truth to it is that it looks like it was designed by a 14-year-old boy. I think it appeals to my inner 14-year-old who wants neon icons and DRAGONS. But if Dr460nized is too garish for you and you want something more sophisticated, now there’s Mokka.
Agreed! And if you don’t like either setup, it’s trivial to customize it.
This is a good point. Some distros are on the other end of the spectrum of being too slow (it seems) to update but you might be onto something.
Pardon me for asking so … but if you yearn for the “stability” (“simplicity”?) of Windows why not use a Linux distro with an approach more similar to that?
So something not Arch based, … and even tho NixOS almost kinda is the correct direction (for an arch-ish thing), I got the feeling you don’t really want to configure your system & potentially upkeep that config?
Also to note that the actual issue wasn’t fully diagnosed. Reinstalling the full os to fix an update is fairly extreme for your mainstream Linux these days.
But to be at least a bit on topic - bcs I need “simplicity” & “stability” at times when I can’t even (for months on end) I use Tumbleweed (rolling distro).
Fully agree!
As a Linux user for more than 10 years now, I can not really understand why so many people switch from Windows to CachyOS.
Yes, CachyOS is great. In general I see the advantage of Arch based distros, but only if one knows what they are doing. It’s great on fresh installs, but over time users need to fix issues and make decisions and this only works if they know what they are doing.
Similar wis NixOS. Great distro, but not for low maintanance and beginners. If you just want something that runs super stable and you don’t need to fix anything, go for Debian. And there are a lot of options between Debian and CachyOS.
+1
I run CachyOs and EndeavourOS on my main desktop, and I really don’t mind tinkering to fix things if needed.
I also share a laptop with my wife, and that’s where I want something Windows like (both in stability and familiarity). Zorin has been really good for that imo.
I definitely don’t mind the tinkering but I do mind things breaking just as I want to fire up a game with my friend. I wanna choose the moment I tinker not the other way around. It’s also about the interval in which the tinkering is needed. If I spend more time browsing arch wiki than using my PC it’s a bit skewed…
Yeah, that’s what you’ll get away from by switching to something like Debian. The number of packages that gets updated every week can usually be counted on two hands, if that. That means less chance for something to change drastically under the hood that might bring the whole system down.
I feel like the other side of that coin is that some stuff might not work/be supported or takes long to fix though. I mean the most stable system would be one where the hardware or software would never change. But that’s quite unrealistic.
cachy is the current ‘flavour of the day’, apparently.
What would your ultimate distro be like?
… Debian.
You read my mind. So straightforward.
Why reinstall instead of just repairing the issue at hand?
We had to do that in Windows too.
Hard to repair with no image. And fixing it using a live USB with root is quite involving. Windows issues are almost never this serious and in such cases safe mode exists.
You must have been of Microslop for a while if you think frustrating issues on update is a Linux thing. Just last a couple weeks ago, Microsoft released a security update that locked people out of their “C” drive. (In Windows, this is bad)
Windows sucks donkey balls for sure. Between shoving AI down your throat and indeed also messing up things or weird ass issues it’s a shit fest too. But my point is that people are more adjusted to it and there’s more resources to fix the issue. And in my experience it’s less of a OS breaking experience.
I’ve found the opposite - using Linux on my PC has been a breeze. I expected drama connecting my phone and e-reader, but no. Plain sailing, everything just works. I’m so glad I jumped when I did, hearing some of the recent Windows nonsense.
I’m on Zorin if it helps. The free version.
Totally agree. I tried Zorin for a bit too and it might be the closest to windows so an easier switch. The troubleshooting on windows is generally easier but also still needed. And more and more it seems.
How long have you been using Linux, so on the one hand you still keep thinking about Windows. And on the other hand you already progressed to an Arch derivate, use BTRFS, snapshots, a non-standard bootloader and all that stuff?
I like NixOS. But it’s really for people with too much spare time to learn new programming languages, abstract concepts and weird quirks. It’s great. But sometimes you’ll also do a simple
nixos-rebuild switchand it’ll greet you with 4 pages of gibberish. Or you’ll spend 3h packaging some weird Python stuff, because you can’t just install and run it like on a regular distro 😅I’ve been on Linux for about 1-2 years now i think. Needed a reinstall a couple of times and did some distro hopping too.
NixOS seems to be a final destination for a lot of people and the premise of it seems really cool. I did try before but I was a bit put off by the programming style of installing. Like I kinda get it but having that automated by just installing from a store and having the programming stuff in the back would be so good for accessibility. How would I know how to program in a certain package or setting without internet?..
Ah great. Yeah, the entire premise of it is: you get to “program” your experience instead of clicking on some install buttons.
You can temporarily just install something in your shell:
nix-shell -p firefox-esrHow would I know how to program in a certain package or setting without internet?
I guess the easiest way, and what all people do is just use https://search.nixos.org/ In doubt, use your phone 😅
You can also install “nix-search-cli” to search for packages. or “nix-option” to get info on options. However, I’m not sure how you’d end up in a situation without internet and wanting to change the configuration. I mean the moment you want to compile and install anything, it needs access to Github or wherever the code is stored. And if you don’t compile it yourself, it will pull it from the NixOS cache, which is also on the internet. So you can’t do anything. And the times we had a DVD to install software are long gone. So it’s probably down to some rare exception when you’re on the train or airplane, want to prepare something to apply later?! I don’t think there’s a good solution except the two CLI tools and maybe a local copy of the documentation / handbook.And in my experience, the NixOS documentation isn’t great. It’s either there and straightforward. Or it’s a lot of searching stuff on the Wiki, forum… Using GitHub search with an appended: “language:nix” to see if someone already came up with a config. Or I’ll end up reading the code. That is for more advanced things, or niche stuff. It’s a bit similar to the overall experience of NixOS (in my opinion). Either things are super straightforward and mostly done for you to configure with 3 lines of code. Then there’s a fine line of stuff that’s moderately complex. And all the things not covered can get very complex and much more involved.
Yeah for some people that could be enjoyable but the philosophy is pretty cool regardless. I’m surprised no one packaged it in a “easier” way.
For sure. I mean it’s fair to assume you have internet otherwise installing will be an issue regardless. But it’s not as easy as thinking: I wanna install Firefox so I download Firefox.
Use with mix of codex and claude code jt becoming just another level and much more easier to do things
Just don’t do it like me and think copy-pasting stuff from ChatGPT would do it. It’s not good at writing Nix configuration at all. And it doesn’t have a solid understanding either, of all the concepts in the background. Like not being able to execute binaries, what it takes to adapt something without the FHS, the intricacies of Python… Which options are real or just made up…
I have absolutely opposite experience not in web browswer version exactly codex and claude code when it able to interact with system and debug it
Yeah, it probably needs to be a coding agent with some thinking and planning and a feedback loop. Or you’ll end up in a situation like me.
Im always surprised how different the windows expirience seems to be for many people or do they ignore all the searching for drivers, editing registry entries, running sketchy bats, trying compatibility modes until something works, random blue screens, shutdowns that are reboots.
What do you mean? I hear that “SFC /SCANNOW” fixes everything!
Totally agree with Kichae. Adding to that I’d argue it’s easier for windows since more people use it so there’s more resources. Also, Windows is just a single way of doing things. There’s a difference between distros so a fix for Ubuntu might not work for Arch. Of course windows has it’s (huge) flaws and not everything works perfectly. There’s a reason I switched. But Linux in my experience breaks in a bigger way in my personal experience.
Well, most of us know how to deal with all of those, and the vast majority of them haven’t been an issue for the average user for, like, decades now. No one’s fucking with compatubility mode post, like, 2004.
Meanwhile, most of the help you get when trying to solve issues on Linux are command line commands that are not explained by the helper and which we have no idea what they actually do.
The fight I had just to get my printer to work. The fight I’m still having to get my audio interface to work consistently.
Use something stable and boring like LinuxMint. No issues in 7 years.
cachyos is not a system for newbies, or absolute stability. nix isn’t it either.
try fedora, debian,
ubuntu, mint or something newbie friendly if you want a newbie friendly experience.I use fedora, debian and mint because I have several computers for different usecases. I wouldn’t recommend Fedora for this, all the others are gold in my experience, but newbies really should go through Mint first.
i find that bazzite can be a great beginner distro, as it has some sane quality of life defaults baked in over fedora, but fedora is not bad if you can get used to default dockless gnome for example.
I’d argue that CachyOS is more noon friendly than arch. As would EndeavourOS be. People fail to see my point that sometimes Linux breaks very easily and I’m not blaming Cachy or Arch specifically but a simple update and sleep should not result in a black screen on any OS IMO. It’s just off putting… If this would happen on windows I’d definitely complain too. And there have been plenty of instances where microslop added OS breaking things…
you are arguing from a place of stubbornness. cachy arch and nix are not supposed to be newbie friendly distros. linux doesn’t break easily at all, but only if you accept you need the right tool for that job.
it’s like that youtuber that keeps insisting on using pop os with a beta desktop when he knows its not windows and breaks, and then complains it’s not windows and breaks.
i work with linux and i’ve been updating hundreds of debian, ubuntu and assorted turnkey distros over decades without issue, and you could too.
I was never talking about either of them being noon friendly. Also, updating and failing to boot is kind of breaking easily I’d say. So I don’t get what point you’re even making.
so one of the reasons distros that update quicker and use newer software are generally considered advanced is because they use brand new less tested software that breaks easier. ie. for enthusiasts looking for all the new shiny features all the time, the best possible performance or easy modularity at the cost of stability.
it’s what i mean when i say you have to accept you need the right tool for the job. newbies who expect and need a stable hands-off experience like you are recommended debian, mint, ubuntu and such for a reason.
don’t worry though, the cool new features and performance will trickle down to you whenever they are ready for wide adoption. and you can be an enthusiast on a boring distro too.
simple update and sleep should not result in a black screen on any OS IMO
That’s the thing. Different distros handle it in different ways. Some have the option to do offline updates so it will not actually install the update until after reboot so there is minimal risk of something interfering. That’s why often the recommendation is to try and find one that is more stable if that is what you value more.
I can totally get behind that. But then I’m left wondering: if that approach minimises the risk of interference, then why don’t all distros work that way?
My guess would be some value stability at all costs, others value user control, and others value uptime.
I’d argue that CachyOS is more noon friendly than arch.
I’d say no, Arch forces you to learn to use a terminal, chroot and other things so you can fix your system if it breaks. CachyOS expects you to know this but doesn’t force you to. It’s like saying jumping off an airplane is more noob friendly because of the static line.
People fail to see my point that sometimes Linux breaks very easily and I’m not blaming Cachy or Arch specifically but a simple update and sleep should not result in a black screen on any OS IMO.
Yes, that’s correct, I have never ever in my 20 years of running Linux and administering Linux laboratories seen a system break because of a sleep during an update. It’s very likely that that was just a coincidence and the system would have broken regardless of the sleep. I don’t have all of the info but my guess would be either Nvidia driver related (as I see recent news mention it on both Arch and Cachy) or (more likely) you changed a system config and the update kept your version which is now not compatible (it happens, it’s part of the reason why Arch is called unstable, on stable distros that can only happen during version updates, and you get promoted about each of them, but Arch expects you to check pacnew/pacsave files after an update)
It’s you who’s missing the point that the other person made, your experience is not something that matches other Linux users. CachyOS is not noob friendly, these sort of thing should never happen in Mint or other more noob friendly, but Cachy expects you to be aware of certain things because it is a bleeding edge rolling release distro. People think Arch is difficult because of the installation process, but that’s not it, that’s very straightforward, maintain the system is what’s difficult.
As a newbie it is easier to set up Cachy. When shit hits the fan either fixing it on Arch or Cachy would give a similar experience to a noob I think.
I understand it might be a fluke or that I am at least a minority in this issue. But that makes troubleshooting harder. I’m even on all AMD hardware.
It’s interesting that the whole idea about stability (the system not breaking) shifts from the developer to the user.
As a newbie it is easier to set up Cachy. When shit hits the fan either fixing it on Arch or Cachy would give a similar experience to a noob I think.
Yes, but Arch prepared you for it. Arch philosophy is one of teaching you why you need to do something, and then how to do it, so if something breaks you have some vague idea of what was and how to fix it. CachyOS is Arch, it has the same expectations of you knowing things, and having read the wiki, but you skipped the tutorial. This is why me and many others despite the idea of recommending an “easy” Arch to newbies, it’s not easy and only causes trouble.
Arch is very unstable (in the sense that anything can change) and that means it’s easier to break things if you’re not careful with things you don’t know to be careful about. For example, not saying that this is your case, but I’ve seen people install drivers and programs through binaries downloaded form a webpage like they would on Windows, that is a TERRIBLE idea as it will likely break on the next update, and if it’s something important like a GPU driver you will be dropped to a terminal.
I understand it might be a fluke or that I am at least a minority in this issue. But that makes troubleshooting harder.
It’s not about being a minority, it’s about we don’t have all of the info so can’t help you. From the info you gave us I can tell you it’s not something known, as I haven’t seen it being reported by others, which means it’s something specific that you did to your system. Every thread I find for CachyOS update breaking things is a unique case where the person did something.
And I know your knee jerk reaction will be “I did nothing, I only updated”, but that’s probably not true, otherwise we would see other people reporting the issue. If simply updating now was enough to break the system we would be hearing from hundreds of people whose system broke. But we haven’t, the only report we have is yours, which very likely means you did something different from everyone else. And I get that you don’t know what it is, when I first started using Linux I used to break my system every couple of months, and I always thought it was the system fault, but guess what? It wasn’t. Eventually I learnt to use Linux and my system never broke again, I can’t tell you for sure what I was doing before, but clearly I was doing something.
It’s interesting that the whole idea about stability (the system not breaking) shifts from the developer to the user.
Well, that’s bound to happen if you own the system. Same reason most companies have a warranty void if you fiddle with the internals, once you do that it’s impossible to say if the issue was caused by you or them, and the same thing is true for a Linux system. My guess here is that you changed a config, or installed an unofficial package or something or the sort, it might have been months ago, but now the update changed one of the underlying things and it broke. I would probably lean to the config side of things, since I don’t expect you installed anything critical from outside the repos. Or another possibility is that you went a long time without updating, that can have consequences on Arch systems.
PS: I get it, I know this seems harsh, I know you’re probably thinking “I did nothing, this Linux is unstable and finicky”, I know that because I was in your shoes 20 years ago. Arch is not for everyone, even some extremely knowledgeable people dislike the high maintenance it sometimes imposes, for new people without experience it can be like walking on a landmine field. Which is why I always recommended more newbie friendly distros like Mint, because they try to be more stable in all senses of the word (you can still break them though, as you are in control of the system, but it’s more difficult).
If I’m being completely honest, it sounds like you hit a problem and then just kinda gave up (I’m not trying to sound mean or anything - please don’t take it that way).
If I were in that situation I would probably drop to a terminal (ex. CTRL+ALT+3) and try to find what failed (
journalctl). Especially if the screen just stayed black I would probably wonder what packages I just updated. I’m not going to remember, but it’s probably something graphical. Maybe I installed nvidia dkms packages and I have a mismatch or I decided to try out a different login manager and it happens to not support Wayland or something. Snapshots would be my last resort, not my first.As far as NixOS, I love it. Its incredibly stable and the declarative language is really handy to write in. I’m not aware of any graphical store though (outside of maybe some github project). Its declarative meaning you write the configuration.nix file and import any secondary files into the config. And packages are installed declaratively:
environment.systemPackages = with pkgs; [ pkgs.gnome-tweaks pkgs.gnome-control-center pkgs.gnome-terminal }I would say if you are wanting GUI that NixOS is probably not a great choice. I mean just to get installed package version, you’re going to have to do a one-liner (mine for example):
#!/bin/bash find /run/current-system/sw/bin/ -type l -exec readlink {} \; | sed -E 's|[^-]+-([^/]+)/.*|\1|g' | sort -uiIf I’m being completely honest, it sounds like you hit a problem and then just kinda gave up (I’m not trying to sound mean or anything - please don’t take it that way).
I got the same impression. Which is fine if that’s someone’s approach, but that same person probably shouldn’t be on an arch-based distro if that’s the case.
If I’m being completely honest, it sounds like you hit a problem and then just kinda gave up (I’m not trying to sound mean or anything - please don’t take it that way).
Not having a display output made me feel like I’d need a live USB and fix it with root which is often to always quite involved. Thank you for your detailed guide. That’s part of why I love the Linux community. There’s often to always someone knowledgeable that has a solution. I will try this later!
no “ultimate distro”, but i do wish there was a bigger culture of “no regressions for users”
Plasma 6 has been a series of regressions for me, such that i find my computer a little less functional almost every time i update.
That said i still like it miles better than mac or Windows, which are even worse about this
but i do wish there was a bigger culture of “no regressions for users”
Isn’t that basically Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce (and most other DEs not named COSMIC, GNOME or KDE Plasma)?
except xfce, those are both GNOME forks. Maybe the solution is Trinity DE but for Plasma 5 (Pentarchy?)
Interesting, could you provide some examples? As far as I know they just add features?
I can’t blame the devs for not advertising regressions, but it’s not something that pointieststick’s blog tends to cover.
The most recent one from the current plasma version was the removal of tiled slideshow wallpapers. You can have a tiled wallpaper or a slideshow, but you can’t have a slideshow of tiled images any longer.
The justification was to reduce memory overhead, which i understand for all the Steam Decks running Plasma, but i’ve got RAM to spare (also xfce and GNOME do this just fine). Now i need to manually make new wallpapers
Another one is window shade. Worked in all apps up until 5.27 or one of the other very late 5 releases. Still worked in 6.0 and 6.1 in non-qt apps. Fully broke sometime before 6.2 and hasn’t been looked at since.
Scroll to change desktop was disabled around 6.3. Thankfully it wasn’t removed, but it’s annoying to have a core part of one’s workflow seemingly broken after an update
Vertical taskbars set to expand automatically would crash the “configure taskbar” interface from 6.1-6.5 for me. Thankfully this one has been fixed.
Window positions are no longer remembered after a restart or log out. Setting applications to autostart in specific locations has been broken for me for a while.
I can probably come up with a couple more but i’m sure you get the picture. In each case the breakage was known before the actual release, and in each case it was decided to proceed anyway.
Don’t get me wrong. Plasma is the best desktop available IMO. I’m just disappointed any time it regresses at all.
Thanks for your very detailed explanation. That seems annoying for sure. Your used features might be niche (I’m not even sure they are) but it is always very annoying when they remove something you use daily.
Maybe extensions might help?
I haven’t found the right extensions yet but hopefully someday
Why sometimes Linux is hard to switch to
Switching is easy. Sticking to it is harder and involves relearning most of your activities in a new context.
So now I face another reinstall…
I’d honestly think that CachyOS was more ‘sturdy’. Though, I suppose it’s curious that you don’t mention anything about your troubleshooting attempts. Beyond your rollbacks in hopes of resolving the issue*. If you don’t like/want to (learn to) troubleshoot, then reconsider if CachyOS is your home.
FWIW, over (almost) 4 years of Fedora Atomic, I was only once ‘forced’ to reinstall; which happened in the first week (or so). And that was 100% a user error.
This and having to dive into the deep end of terminal commands to get drivers, programs or games working can be quite frustrating.
This isn’t recognizable to me. Would you be so kind to clarify/elaborate? Perhaps with an example even?
I understand why people are turned off and go back to Windows…
The only time I felt this, was when I just cold-turkey switched to Fedora Silverblue and bashed my head to the wall when trying to implement Madaidan’s hardening 😅. But, again, that was just very naive.
Onto NixOS for me.
NixOS is definitely based. So go for it.
What would your ultimate distro be like?
Stateless, and hardened AF. So, probably an amalgamation between your favorite security-focused Linux (be it secureblue or Qubes OS) and NixOS for its impermanence module.
Yes you’re totally right. It’s like owning a race car. You have to do a lot of maintenance to it and it will still bite you in the ass but when it works right it’s fast as hell and a lot of fun. But on the other hand: if there’s no downside to built in some failsafes then why not do it?
Thanks OP for replying! Though, I’m a little bit confused as you had already replied to this specific comment. Perhaps you meant to reply to this comment instead?
Regardless…
It’s like owning a race car. You have to do a lot of maintenance to it and it will still bite you in the ass but when it works right it’s fast as hell and a lot of fun.
If that analogy was used to describe Arch, then yeah; I can definitely see that.
But on the other hand: if there’s no downside to built in some failsafes then why not do it?
So, if you allow me, I would like to slightly rephrase the main question to the following sub-questions (and try to discuss them as we go):
- What problem are we even trying to solve? Answer: The problem of broken/borked systems due to every-day activities. Literally none of the other systems/OSes in your life do this. Your phone doesn’t. Your console doesn’t. Your non-Linux PC doesn’t. Your car doesn’t. Your TV doesn’t. Your refrigerator doesn’t. You get the drill. So how is it even conceivable that desktop Linux is the only one that hasn’t solved this yet?
- Why is this even a hard problem to solve on desktop Linux? Answer: Because it allows far more control, agency and ownership compared to all the previously mentioned systems/OSes. Heck, you can just
sudo rm -rf /your system/OS into oblivion. It is almost an oxymoron for your system to simultaneously- grant you all the freedom to do whatever you want
- and take away that very same freedom in order to preserve itself
- What fail-safes even exist? Answer: Below you may find a non-exhaustive list including a short discussion.
- Take away the freedom of the user 😅. This is literally what both Android and ChromeOS have done. And, to be absolutely fair, to great success. Your grandma wouldn’t care much for the freedom that Linux allows; she is more interested in a reliable system. This is a very effective way to make that happen. As for desktop Linux, I’m unaware of any distros that go this route. The furthest I’ve seen distros go, is that they won’t commit to support all kinds of uses. Which, to be fair, is absolutely fine in my book.
- Actual attempts to make the system less brittle. This is where it gets a bit more interesting. Desktop Linux shits itself rather easily, honestly. It should be a lot more robust. To give you an example, IIRC, I played once a little with
/etc/pam.dand my laptop didn’t boot into the OS the very next time. Like, I get it; it’s important and all, but we should be able to do better than that. While I can’t show you any examples - as I failed to find where I had seen them before - I do know that some existing systems are able to NOT piss themselves whenever an important subdirectory of/etcis absent. Arguably, NixOS provides the best example of this in practice. But I digress… - Keeping track of known good states and allowing the user a return to them. Basically, this refers to rollback functionality, but is not limited to them. Other examples include the factory resets made possible by
bootc’sinstall resetand Pop_OS’ recovery partition. A LOT can be said about this and its many variations/implementations, but this suffices for the sake of brevity.
- Are there any downsides to any of the aforementioned fail-safes? Answer:
- Taking away the user’s freedom would be like taking Linux’ soul out. This would be a categorical error. So this can’t be done UNLESS the user desires it for themselves. But, as I said earlier, I’m unaware of any distro (besides Android or ChromeOS) that has gone down this route.
- Making the system less brittle is unfortunately not that easy, it seems. Perhaps systemd can make some changes in hopes of addressing this. Otherwise, it seems that (some) atomic distros are at least pushing changes to this effect. But aside from NixOS, I’m unaware of any that have provided a mature solution. While it definitely fares better than most, it’s not as if NixOS is unbreakable either…
- Rollback functionality has slowly but surely become a common occurrence on desktop Linux. But, it isn’t sufficient by itself. OpenSUSE basically pioneered this when they launched Tumbleweed, but it became obvious that this wasn’t deemed enough by itself when MicroOS came along. Your experience also confirms this. Hence, this might give a false sense of security. Don’t get me wrong; there’s definitely something brilliant going on here. But, by itself, it has proven to be insufficient.
- So…, is the if-clause satisfied? Answer: Nope. Hence it should be easy to understand why they’re not doing it. A perfect solution with no downsides simply doesn’t exist.
- Is all hope lost? Can’t we do anything? Answer: I hope it’s more than clear by now that it’s a hard problem. But, while not perfect, there are some steps one might take for their benefit:
- Limit change. A broken/borked system/OS implies that it wasn’t before. So, something happened, i.e a change occurred, after which it shat itself. So…, the solution should be rather easy: just make no changes, right? Yeah…, that’s unfortunately not how we use our systems. But, we can limit it; which is where slow-moving distros come in. Downside: They have to move slowly…
- Compartmentalize. Why should installing a piece of software make changes to your base system? We don’t see this in NixOS. Nor do we see this on Android or ChromeOS. Downsides: Integration isn’t best yet. And, you have to trust more instances, which ain’t ideal for security/supply-chain. But, if you insist, choose your poison:
- AppImage
- Brew
- Distrobox
- Flatpak
- Nix
- Sysext
- Snap
- Toolbx
- … (Etc. You get the drill.)
- Ensure that every state is a known good state by excessive testing. This is kinda hard to do on your own. But…, what if your (base) system is literally the same as the one tested by your distro provider? And you know that they’re testing it (perhaps even excessively) in hopes that they may find a bug/breakage before it ships to you. This is not 100% fail safe, either. But it’s a lot easier to test than the (effectively infinitely) many permutations allowed otherwise. This is kinda the route some atomic distros have taken. Most notably, Fedora Atomic and its many derivatives. Downstream like uBlue (so, Bazzite etc.) fares even better at this. Downside: I don’t think you can achieve this without going atomic. Which, is absolutely fine for some of us, but -crucially- not for all of us (yet)…
- Rollbacks. We shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Combined with (some of) the previous points, this amounts to a reasonably robust system. Downside: Briefly discussed earlier. Refer to that please.
There’s perhaps more that can be written on this topic. But, I’ve already become tired and this text has already become quite lengthy. If you managed to come this far, thank you! Much appreciated!
Sticking to it is harder and involves relearning most of your activities in a new context.
True. That’s already a speedbump in the road. But that’s to be expected when switching to a different OS.
I suppose it’s curious that you don’t mention anything about your troubleshooting attempts. Beyond your rollbacks in hopes of resolving the issue*. If you don’t like/want to (learn to) troubleshoot, then reconsider if CachyOS is your home.
Troubleshooting is no issue. But not having a picture does not help lol. Perhaps using a live USB might fix it. But then again, that probably involves messing with kernel settings or whatever. Seems quite involved for a simple update…
This isn’t recognizable to me. Would you be so kind to clarify/elaborate? Perhaps with an example even?
Depends. I had issues with Bluetooth chips. That’s the fault of the manufacturer, not Linux but still. My Xbox controller was difficult to connect at times. I’ve had installs with audio issues or difficulties playing games because Lutris or Bottles wouldn’t work…
Thanks for the response!
But not having a picture does not help lol. Perhaps using a live USB might fix it. But then again, that probably involves messing with kernel settings or whatever. Seems quite involved for a simple update…
I 100% agree with you. But we shouldn’t ignore that CachyOS -at the end of the day- is still just Arch. And, within its excellent Wiki, we find the following “Warning” in the section concerning upgrading packages:
“Users are expected to follow the guidance in the System maintenance#Upgrading the system section to upgrade their systems regularly and not blindly run the following command.”
If we follow the link, we find within the second paragraph the following important reminder:
“Make sure to have the Arch install media or another Linux ‘live’ CD/USB available so you can easily rescue your system if there is a problem after updating.”
Kinda on the nose, don’t you think 😅? So, to be clear:
- I agree that reaching out to a live USB after a simple update is kinda bonkers.
- Yet, I acknowledge that that’s basically within expectations for Arch.
- Hence, I don’t use Arch[1]. And perhaps you shouldn’t either…
My Xbox controller was difficult to connect at times.
Thanks for clarifying! But, is this still related to issues with Bluetooth chips?
I’ve had installs with audio issues
Sorry, I simply can’t relate; simply, because I thankfully can’t recall being bothered with any such occurrence.
difficulties playing games because Lutris or Bottles wouldn’t work…
This, however, I can relate to. I’ve noticed that installing through one of the storefronts -be it GOG[2], Steam, Epic[3] (etc)- is a much better experience. And even if you don’t own it through any of the aforementioned platforms. Chances are that both the Steam client AND Heroic Games Launcher will do a splendid job at running the game. To be clear, I’ve use both Lutris and Bottles in the past; the latter quite extensively even*.
This is exactly what I think every time someone recommends CachyOS or Manjaro to new users. Arch is great, but it expects the user to know how to deal with things, it expects user to read the news and it pulls the rug periodically because it expects you to be able to figure things out.
In your case in particular I don’t think it was Cachy on its own, otherwise we would have seen other users affected, but still, it’s likely that the Arch philosophy got you because of something you changed without even remembering and now with the update your config is no longer backwards compatible.
NixOS is great, but it’s a very different paradigm, you will not be able to install things from the graphical interface as you’re expected to declare your system. And it can never be compatible with a graphical installation as that would beat the whole purpose of reproductible builds.
I think what you’re looking for might be something like Bazzite, where the core system is immutable but you get user space freedom. But personally, if 0 downtime is your goal NixOS is better, as you can rollback to previous generations of your system if something goes wrong, but to get that you have to pay the price of declaring your whole system which might be too steep to pay for some.
Ubuntu was the first Linux distro I tried, and I’ve never tried anything else, across three laptops. I’ve never experienced problems like the ones you describe.
