Hey all you beautiful selfhosters,
What are your suggestions for frugally obtaining HDDs in the current economic climate? Specifically the EU (Netherlands).
I’m looking at second hand drives, but even those go for €100+ now, with bad sectors and all.
Can we organise a collective AI datacenter robbery and doll out some stolen drives? 😁
What size are you looking for? I paid ~150€ for 12tb refurbished and ~200 for 8tb new. Don’t think you could get a high capacity drive for 100 even before the crisis
Have you tried Tweakers Vraag & Aanbod yet?
https://datablocks.dev/ is a Dutch company.
Amazing! Thanks
It looks like good prices. But every single one is out of stock
I see 14 SKUs in stock. They explain how they get stock, just need to be patient.
That said, OP is asking for something around 100 EUR which is pretty low and not many enterprises or SMBs will buy drives that small. That just sucks if you need something like 4Tb.
They have good deals on 10+ Tb drives tho.
My work sells commercial tier drives that were used by customers in NVRs for $10/TB. It’s honestly a great perk of the job for a data hoarder like myself with a fully redundant 100TB of stuff (aka 200TB of drives). I also got a dope 16 bay server chassis with slides and a few other components from them. I fully intend to drop like 2 grand on HDDs if/when I move to a new company, assuming they don’t fire me for AI or something first.
Ebay, particularly GoHardDrives, or sometimes you’ll find new drives from random sellers.
I also check ServerPartDeals. Drives are pricy these days, don’t sneeze near your NAS.
Edit: I’m not sure if they ship internationally or not, however.
2/3 of the drives I received from GoHardDrive failed within 2 years and all I got was a pre-bubble refund.
Oof. 🙃
They do, but there may be better local alternatives, since the shipping can be quite high.
Enterprise decommissions, workplace, stuff ehere they just want to get rid of it quick
Frugal and recycled. Using a mix of old disks in OMV8 with a mergerfs array, suprisingly they amounted to 20TB, so saved a few bob.
If a disk fails in Mergerfs you loose the data on that disk only and not the array as you would with a pure jbod array.
There is a remove disk utility in the OMV8 mergerfs plugin that allows the data from a failing disk to be copied back to the array, if enough space is available, retaining the data from the failing disk. The disk can then be physically removed. If the array is short on space, add a disk to expand the array before removing the failing disk.
I’ve only ever used it with a failing disk, not a failed disk, I would guess that a backup would be required in that case.
The same applies to mergerfs outside of OMV8, this was easier for me.
I use snapraid for parity on top (OMV7). Works nicely with mergerfs. If a drive fails it can be easily rebuilt. You can use older smaller drives to do split parity (I got 3x 8TB as array and 2x 4TB for parity)
Everyone asks “where do we get more storage?” and not “do we need to hoard all of this?”
I think a big fuel for these storage anxieties is the very real situation we’re in right now, where we’re watching the “forever Internet” erode and crumble before our eyes, and getting rug-pulled from every direction service-wise, and losing access to media we don’t have a hard copy of.
I do wish there were a better way to pool all this storage for a common library of preservation…I mean I guess Internet Archive is like that but they’re constantly under attack. All this is under heaps of legal “gray area” and obviously the media titans want to force a rental-only-own-nothing world.
Right now we kinda have to become a scattered group of amateur historians and librarians, to preserve our culture.
I don’t say this to be mean so please don’t take it this way, but I think this mentality is… privileged? If the free internet goes then so does society as we know it, and the obscure french film collections from the 80s isn’t gonna do anything for you in that new reality. The things that need to be prepped are plain text and take up no space at all, in the grand scheme of things. It is feasible to self-host a text-only version of the entirety of Wikipedia, but nobody here is talking about that. It’s as if people think there’s gonna be some middle-ground where the internet is totally shut down and somehow life goes on as normal. You’d think priorities would shift a little away from media consumption towards “oh shit how do I learn how to filter my water”.
It would sure suck if you were the only person on earth with that french film collection, but do any historians actually know how to reach you? Have you made this information available? If not, then your archive is not useful.
If the free internet goes then so does society as we know it, and the obscure french film collections from the 80s isn’t gonna do anything for you in that new reality. It’s as if people think there’s gonna be some middle-ground where the internet is totally shut down and somehow life goes on as normal. You’d think priorities would shift a little away from media consumption towards “oh shit how do I learn how to filter my water”.
This has been my thinking for the very longest while. If/When the internet goes ‘somewhere’, commerce screeches to a halt, globally. We’re at a point where there is no going back to pen and paper. When commerce screeches to a halt, no one is going to be gunning for your NAS drive filled with movies. They will be gunning for whatever life sustaining resources you have to make theirs. You think people are crazy now…we’ve yet to plumb the depths of crazy.
The answer is yes.
Seconded.
Because the answer to the second question is a very clear “yes”.
Yes. If I want to organize and dedupe what I have then I need enough storage to work on it, a lot of my storage is spinning rust 7-15 years old, and if I have the space I’m going to use it. I have family photos and a music library going back to 2005. Too many things like old games need custom fixes installed to work correctly on modern hardware, and the internet isn’t as permanent as it was cracked up to be.
There’s plenty of reasons to hold on to older data.
I have family photos starting in 2001, scanned/captured photos and video going back 50 years, music, and backups of all my Xbox DVDs (WTF is the original Xbox even called today?). But that’s a few terrabytes. It can all fit on a few USB sticks. (Which I do as a third level backup.)
The real space killers are the TV shows and movies that I will watch at most once every 20 years. I could delete almost all of it. But I don’t. Instead I keep looking for bigger storage options.
I’ve become much more selective with my video quality. I’ve found that 480p encoded from a raw source produces pretty acceptable quality, anything that isn’t made to be eye candy I’ll encode myself from a raw file down to 480p. There have been many things that have been very hard to find, so I feel it’s more important that they exist, rather than be in the highest definition possible. Quality of pixels is more important that quantity of pixels.
This really depends on what you’re watching it on. 480p can look fine on a phone but like garbage on a 65" OLED. I find that 720p is good for most shows that aren’t visually stunning (like Foundation) while most movies look fine in 1080p on the aforementioned OLED.
My Bravia does some magic that makes video files look better than they do on PC. I’ve started replacing many of my 2160p files with 1080p ones, the difference is often barely noticeable, depending on the quality of the respective rips.
I don’t generally go below 720p but some old stuff that hasn’t been remastered has no reason to go above 480p.
Aren’t old games pretty small though? It’s new ones that you may need a huge volume to store many of them. Depends how much we are talking of course. 2TB or 50TB?
Depends what era but generally yes. Xbox 360 seem to be in the 3-6GB range, Wii / GameCube in the 1-2GB range. Older gens are ofc smaller.
My entire gaming library is approx 200gb, but it’s curated, retro / indy focused (early 2000s to mid 2010’s)
- Beyond Sunset
- Citizen Sleeper
- Dino Strike (Wii)
- Divinity: Original Sin – Enhanced Edition
- Donut County
- Exo One
- Fallout 3
- Final Fantasy X (PS2)
- Firewatch
- Flower
- Go Vacation (Wii)
- Gun
- I Am Your Beast
- Inscryption
- Just Cause 2
- Killer Frequency
- LEGO Harry Potter: Years 1–4 (Wii)
- Lifeless Planet
- Luigi’s Mansion (GC)
- Mario Kart: Double Dash!! (GC)
- Mini Ninjas (Wii)
- New Super Mario Bros (Wii)
- Luanti
- Scanner Somber
- Shadow of the Colossus (PS2)
- A Short Hike
- Sid Meier’s Pirates! (Wii)
- Stanley Parable: Ultra Deluxe
- State of Mind
- Super Mario Sunshine (GC)
- SUPERHOT
- The Exit 8
- The House of the Dead: Overkill (Wii)
- The Incredible Hulk: Ultimate Destruction (GC)
- TOEM
- Twelve Minutes
- The Invincible
- Untitled Goose Game
- UnMetal
- Diablo 2
- WarioWare: Smooth Moves (Wii)
- We Love Katamari (PS2)
- Prince of Persia (Wii)
- Hitman 2 (GC)
- Cubivore (Wii)
TIL Sid Meier’s Pirates was released on Wii.
Its a really good version too. My favourite is probably the OG C64 (first love and all that) but the Wii has some real hidden gems.
With how the internet is going, I don’t think we will be able to get content from it in 5 to 10 years. It will be completely locked down, so all we have on our drives will be it. Back to mailing DVDs!
Usenet will likely still be around, and torrents are like playing whack-a-mole.
It will just be a lot harder to get to, and likely harsher laws put in place as well.
I mean, not allowing vpns for personal use would stop us all. Businesses would of course be allowed to use them.
“I mean, not allowing vpns for personal use would stop us all.”
Yes and no. We’d go back to sneakernets. :)
… But that would be significantly more unpleasantly limited than the current ways of doing things…
And sneakernets would make personal archives more valuable than ever
People treat deleting like some dirty word, but all good collections need to be organized and pruned.
What you don’t want to hold onto The Wrecking Crew for your descendants?
Don’t get emotional
You don’t even necessarily need to delete either. If you have a ton of H.264 video you could convert it to 265 or AV1 with minimal quality loss, but huge space savings.
If you torrent that means stopping seeding tho
My only complaint is that lots of my streaming devices don’t natively support newer codecs. So if I convert everything to AV1, my server will end up transcoding basically everything. Smart TVs are particularly bad about supporting anything past h264.
if you are also annoyed qbout the tracking and ads shit smart TVs pull off, you could by a mini-PC to fix all of these at once. making an IR remote work will be challenging, but if you go for plasma bigscreen, you can control it fine with kde connect on your phone.
I really want to go AV1 too. Most of what I play is airplayed from my ipad to whatever so I only need my iPad to support it. But I’m not buying an iPad air just to airplay AV1.
But H265 has been prevalent for about 10 years now so basically any smart TV made in the last 3 years should support it. And if yours don’t then any el cheapo smart tv stick should.
Yeah, the *Arr stack has effectively eliminated the need to permanently retain media. I want to watch something? I just request it, and 10-20 minutes later it is available on my server. I tend to treat *Arr requests the same way I used to treat Blockbuster trips. It takes a few minutes to get what you want to watch, but that’s also a chance to make some popcorn, grab a beer, and settle in.
I only (“only”) keep ~25-30TB of media available at any one moment. And even that is plenty. It’s literally hundreds of movies and TV shows. And if I want to purge old content, that’s easy to do too. Hell, I can even sort by the last time it was watched, and start with the shit that hasn’t been touched in like 18 months.
Same, I fight the consumerist urge to
catch them allkeep everything, but instead shoot for a lower need to purchase more and consume more hardware. Electricity is cheap where I live, so downloading, then deleting shows that I and my household are unlikely to watch again for many years just makes more sense.
The answer is 42.
yes
We wouldn’t be here if we hadn’t already answered the second question affirmatively.
Marty, we need to go back…to the future!
(Mind you, those top out at 320GB per cartridge)
Kidding aside, for deep storage…?
LTO-8 is 12TB native per cartridge. A used LTO can be as little as $300 USD with a 12TB cart $65ish. Ancient LTO-3 can be had for like…$5…and stores upto 800GB per tape.
So…if it’s deep storage you want…that’s one insane option.
OTOH if you’re looking for a Jellyfin streamer…they’re tape, so random access would suck bad. You’d genuinely be better off optical media at that point lol
Though if we’re time travelling… DVD shufflers (400+ DVDs) were a thing for a minute. You’d have to write bridge software because they’re HDMI and com port only…hmm. Checking quickly, they seem to go for $100 USD…is this even possible…? You’d be limited to 1 stream at a time, but I can see a way to share that across multiple TVs with HDMI splitter…hmm…how do I carry RF remote signal from each room back to main unit…oh, I don’t need to, could I make a web ui that controls the shuffler via a Pi to RS-232, that you access on your phone?..Shit…i could do this.
$300…I could do this. I could make a clock work Jellyfin server…
No, stop. This is a dangerous rabbit hole.
PS: shit - I just thought of two better options - and one of them is even semi sane (store video at 480-540p on DVD as mkv, use Nvidia shield to upscale on fly to 1080p). Back of envelope maths suggests this would be around 3000 movies.
I should not be online this late at night with easy access to credit card.
LTO-8 is 12TB native per cartridge. A used LTO can be as little as $300 USD with a 12TB cart $65ish. Ancient LTO-3 can be had for like…$5…and stores upto 800GB per tape.
how do you find so cheap LTO drives?
how do I carry RF remote signal from each room back to main unit…oh, I don’t need to, could I make a web ui that controls the shuffler via a Pi to RS-232, that you access on your phone?..Shit…i could do this.
you could also do an
RFIR remote bridge with two minimal PisIve seen LTO for sale in person at the $300 USD mark…but I admit that’s a rare occurrence / fire sale. So that “as little as” is probably not fair. Sorry and retracted.
EBay shows some in the $1200-1500 USD range (and maybe closer to $3-4K brand new).
That now makes me feel stupid for walking past one at $300 (“tape drive? Who the fuck needs that ancient shit”) but I’m willing to bet that wasn’t a lto-8, in hindsight.
Even my LTO-3 claim is not as remembered; I can find a lto-3 for $60 USD here locally (not the $5 I jokingly claimed), with cartridges in the $15 USD range.
Not bad, but not 12TB per cartridge.
All of this to say; the DVD shuffler + pi intermediary (+ NVIDIA shield if needed) is probably the genuinely better version of this. Bizarrely.
SUBSCRIBE
Some people just want to watch the world burn
Use a hdmi to ip adapter to stream to multiple locations on a local network. Learned about them when looking at security cameras.
Stop enabling my drug addiction :P
Frugally (legally) obtained HDDs are still going to cost you a lot of money, there is no way around that at the moment. If you need it, pay up and be done with it. If you just kind of want it, start sorting through your piles of data you don’t actually need (yes, you have that, stop lying to yourself) to free up space for things you do actually need.
So is there a raid 12 for my 13 500GB drives?
Don’t forget the power bill, even if they sit idle most of the time. 12 drives * 5 watts * 24 hours * 365.25 days ~= 525 kwh. That would cost me $157 aud a year for electricity.
If I instead bought a 6TB drive brand new I’d break even after 3 years, assuming the 500GB drives are $0.
Yeah, it’s half joke, half backup territory (so the drives could just be offline mostly).
RAIDz2 for 5.5TB with 2-disk redundancy.
All of a sudden USB becomes important. 😅
True, but it’ll be nice to have enough space to let the future arr stack I plan on spinning up, roam free
I still have some IOMEGA Zip drives. LOL Man, I remember when those seemed inexhaustible.
You know the fun part is you could just about use a 750 zip disk to steam video. Read speeds are about 7.5mb/s…enough for 1-2 simultaneous 480p Jellyfin streams.
Shit…everybody about RAID and here we are suggesting RAIT. No school like old school.
I still think the “DVD shuffler clockwork JF server with AI upscale” idea would be more fun to build tho, because as stupid as it sounds, the maths adds up. It would be gloriously cursed, but 3000+ hours of video is 3000 + hours of video.
I used to have a DVD duplicator. Picked it up at an auction many, many years back then turned it for twice what I had in it. Something similar to this:
In my country we have a website that resells “old” and used server hardware, including HDDs for reasonable prices. Although that has gone up a lot over the last year or so.
Maybe you have something like that in the Netherlands? I recently bought an 18TB drive for around €400.
Storage is just expensive these days. Just like RAM.
Honestly, I’ve been taking a chance on eBay. If the price is close to $10/TB and the drive is an enterprise drive that is listed as known to be working, with a good return policy, I take the risk. I just run tests as soon as I have it so far, all have been good (eight purchases).
What sort of tests do you run?
Same. I use these drives in a mirrored setup or to hold data that’s replaceable. If they make it a few months without showing errors they might get entrusted to something more important. I’ll shell out for a new drive for my constantly in use drives, luckily I read the warning signs and bought a few 20tb HDDs when ram and SSDs started skyrocketing. I’m kicking myself for not grabbing a few backup m.2 nvme and 2.5" SSDs, because I’m already doing the hardrive shuffle in my mini PCs. I’m fine living life with networked rusty spinners, but I really really don’t want to go back to spinny boot/high throughput drives.
Get lucky - just as this was starting I saw a failed disk notification on my NAS so I ordered a new drive just before they went up. Then I realized it was a stale notification for the drive I replaced a year ago so I have a spare should one fail.
I usually scavenge old drives from work. On one hand they’re a bit smaller than I’d like them to be, but on the other hand they’re free except from the minor work and documentation involved in ensuring that no company related data remain.
Wish my company allowed that. Everything goes to a licensed secure destruction service that literally puts them through an industrial shredder. Awesome to watch, but wasteful as all hell.
Well, there’s a footnote on my end: Me taking the drives home is a bit of a grey area, as the procedures say that the drives are to be mechanically destroyed when no longer needed. It doesn’t specify needed by whom. And I do attack them with my angle grinder, so it’s in accordance with company policy.
And yes, my employer knows and is OK with it. We go through a ridiculous amount of drives due to large storage needs, so pragmatism tends to trump bureaucracy.
Also true for me
