Philosophy is genuinely a fantastic subject to study and I have no idea why school curriculums don’t reflect this
It gives you critical thinking skills, which are already in quite short supply…
Stupid people are easier to control.
I mean also I studied philosophy and have had no regrets. It’s awesome and fascinating and rich and appeals to the fact that you just know that the world doesn’t really make sense
I had a philosophy class on my 3rd year in HS. And I hated it, but only because it was imparted by a bitter and deeply religious old man whose lectures were basically “let me tell you why this philosopher was an idiot and a bad person” when anything challenged his views.
This was, of course, a private Catholic highschool. But, to be fair, he was the only teacher there that was like that. We even had decent sex-ed, taught by an actual doctor.
Well yeah I suspect that’s part of the reason it’s slipped out of the curriculum. Shit teachers co-opted it for religion
Ahh yes, working in a factory… my life’s dream is crushed.
If I can contribute anything: don’t do a Ph.D. just because you’re not sure exactly what you want to do.
It may work out in the long run (thankfully it did eventually for me), but a M.Sc. is much shorter, and you may be more employable with one vs. a Ph.D.
Although do what you feel, maybe just think of this comment if you’re questioning.
(Also sorry, my experience is only in science)
A PhD is only worth it (both in time and money) if you have a real interest in what you are researching.
My family member got one in early childhood ed and can’t find a job because he’s over qualified and their afraid they’ll just find a better job.
I went to college and got a diploma, not a degree. That was because I knew where I wanted to be in the world. I was going to be a sysadmin/network admin/IT support. That was where I was going.
At the time, the available courses for system administrators that resulted in a degree didn’t fucking exist. A big fuck all for degree programs. So I got a diploma, and went on my merry way.
I looked at available degree programs last year and there’s still pretty much sweet fuck all for degree programs for IT support workers, with a few exceptions. A handful of colleges in my country now have some degree programs, and a couple have created one for system/network administrators. They’re massively rare, and the only course plans are for full time class loads. You want to take the degree course, but you have to work? Get fucked. You’re not getting anything.
I actually (foolishly) emailed some of the colleges asking if they would offer enough of the credits in remote learning courses that I could feasibly, eventually, get a degree. If someone could laugh over email, I’m pretty sure that they would have. Needless to say, the answer is a big fuck you.
Yet… I have well over a decade of real world experience and a lot of places are putting up job postings for sysadmin jobs asking for degrees plus years of experience.
So, essentially, they want me to go get a degree, probably in computer Science, which, by the way, isn’t really computer Science. There’s really no Science to it and the only relation to a computer is that you’re doing programming. CS majors cannot do my job. They would be so bad at it, that I would laugh, then cry, knowing I probably have to fix all the fuckups that were just made.
So, they want to hire someone who can’t do the work because they want and need a degree for a job that doesn’t have a degree that actually teaches you the correct skillset.
The entire fucking job market is completely fucked. Unless you do development, GFL wading through all the asinine postings to find one that is reasonable enough to recognize that CS majors are not the people you want working in system admin positions.
The worst part is that businesses can’t see what they’re doing wrong. C-levels, owners and managers, have no fucking clue what I do, nor how I do any of it. Unless it’s a company large enough to have a CIO that’s got a lick of fucking sense, the job posting is going to be utter horse shit for the crap that they’ll expect from you.
“Enjoys a fast paced environment” - you’re going to be over worked.
“Works well independently” - because you’re always going to be working alone, since they won’t hire anyone else to work the job.
"Requires knowledge of: Windows server, VMware, networking, Wan/LAN, VPN, desktop, printers… " You’re the only one working IT and you need to do it all.
“Enjoys a challenge” - nothing is under warranty, so every vendor will tell you to fuck off anytime you are in over your head and call in for support.
I’ve seen this shit so much over the past decade+ that’s it’s all shit. I don’t even fucking read job postings half the time, if it has a salary to it that looks good to me, I check if it’s “hybrid” (aka, in-office, but you can work from home, with managers approval that you’ll never get), in-office, or remote. If it’s anything other than remote, I’m probably moving on. If it passes those first two checks, I skim the requirements for “you should know” shit to determine if I’m working on a team, if they’re actually looking for an IT person, or is this posting, just a poorly worded website design or coding job… And if I don’t see anything too stupid on the list I just throw them my resume.
Look, I’ve done this job long enough that I know my shit, I know I know my shit, and I couldn’t give a fuck less if you call me or not. If you don’t see my potential, your loss. I don’t want to work for someone who is too blind to see that experience > everything, and that what I put on my resume isn’t who I am. I couldn’t possibly cram enough info into a CV to accurately convey the sheer amount of shit I’ve dealt with. Not even fucking close… And if you need someone with at least 5 years experience with ERP-xyz-Max 2010, and won’t even consider anyone who hasn’t used that software, well, you’re too dumb to be helped. Do you have any idea how much specialized software is out there? Give me a fucking break. My expertise isn’t in one specific software, though I have a lot of knowledge of some of the more common ones… My expertise is decoding the shit pile that the publisher calls “documentation” to actually support the program well enough to keep it running. I RTFM so you don’t have to.
There, I said it.
that’s because IT for the most part SHOULDNT have degrees… IT is a trade for the huge majority of people.
computer science is a thing: we need people to develop new algorithms, etc… but most people don’t need to know most of what’s in a compsci degree
but just like we don’t get structural engineers to do the plumbing and electrical in the buildings they design, we should have the plumbers of the IT world: developers who learned like a trade… 50% theory and 50% on the job training as an apprenticeship
we don’t need more compsci graduates… a degree isn’t some magic bullet - it’s a specific kind of learning that’s suited for a specific kind of profession
This exists and makes me howl. https://missing.csail.mit.edu/
Wow. I don’t even know what to say to that.
CS grads don’t even get taught about the CLI?
That’s embarrassing.
And people wonder why employers are hesitant to hire juniors.
And it’s entirely the tech companies making their own bed and then laying in it. In the few jurisdictions where the engineering regulatory colleges won out in protecting their title, there’s a slough of highly qualified Professional Software Engineers who’ve graduated from accredited programs alongside the people who grad from more theory-based compsci programs
I talked to a guy who had a master’s degree in philosophy. He told me he worked for an investment firm.
Me: What do you do there, convince investment bankers not to kill themselves?
Him: Yeah, pretty much.
Me: 😳
So there is a way to use your philosophy degree for evil.
In this case, chaotic neutral i think.
Lawful evil
convince investment bankers not to kill themselves?
Sometimes there is great value in a job done poorly.
I’d think it’d be more ethical to do the exact opposite.
But then who would pay you
👋
I think we could crowd fund something…
I have a masters in philosophy.
I work in IT security and compliance. I’m getting promoted way faster than most of my peers who have masters in technology… because they are really bad at understanding new concepts and ideals and how to apply them. Their mental flexibility is limited.
ironically philosophy majors perform better on graduate school entrance exams like the LSAT and GREs than most other majors, and philosophy graduates tend to be more successful and be better earners than other majors, notably than business major graduates
arugably, philosophy is one of the better majors in terms of outcomes
https://philosophy.unc.edu/undergraduate/the-major/why-major-in-philosophy/
This is PURE speculation, but I feel like this could be caused by the only people who feel comfortable getting a philosophy degree being wealthy connected people. I know a lot of people from my high school that have stereotypical “be poor forever” degrees and are doing great - but if you knew them in high school, you’d know that they had millionaire parents. All the poor kids went for safer degrees because they knew they’d need money.
To be clear: I love philosophy and think it is very valuable. But sadly it seems like something that only privileged people or the very passionate take a risk on.
I didn’t want to say it, but I do think this is a possibility - people like Pete Buttigieg were philosophy majors. However, it’s probably a bit of both - being wealthy and connected probably still makes up a minority of philosophy majors, and yet they still outperform on graduate entrance exams generally.
You might be interested in reading The Management Myth by Matthew Stewart for a non-wealthy philosophy major’s perspective on business. :-)
That could also create a networking situation for even poor ones.
Yeah I agree, there is probably a bias effect here. That may or may not explain all of the difference. The one you’ve proposed makes sense.
Don’t ya think this might be a bit bias? They have a vested interest to sell you a philosophy degree.
I used my philosophy of science classwork all the time in my engineering career.
What constitutes proof? What kinds of questions can you answer with data? When do we consider a pattern of behavior to represent the existence of some entity?
Being able to think about these kinds of questions with clarity is really helpful in diagnosing problems in large systems.
I’ve worked with a few philosophy majors in various roles and they were more thoughtful about things. Like they learned how to think, not just what to think.
What constitutes proof?
Statistical significance.
What constitutes proof? What kinds of questions can you answer with data? When do we consider a pattern of behavior to represent the existence of some entity?
Any recommended reading for someone who’s never formally studied philosophy?
Bertrand Russell has an intro to philosophy book that is quite accessible.
Karl Popper, “The Logic of Scientific Discovery” is a seminal work in the modern philosophy of science. It proposes to solve the problem of induction, and his proposal of falsifiability is, to my knowledge, the most popular philosophical framework for modern scientific practice. I’d be interested in what the above commenter has to say about Popper, though, as I am not well-read outside of his work, as my focus is on the history of science.
Popper is considered an important historical contributor by the field, in the same way that Jacob Lister might be in surgery. Groundbreaking but their methods have been replaced.
Jeffrey Kaplan is the best current philosophy lecturer on YouTube imo. He focuses more on theories of consciousness but covers epistemology too. Bryan Magee did a fantastic interview series called The Great Philosophers that’s on YouTube.
I would actually start with sociology of science if you want the most interesting contemporary stuff. Harry Collins is fantastic, check out his recent book on LIGO. Steven Shapin’s book on the Scientific Revolution is good.
Bruno Latour is a love-him-or-hate-him figure in science studies (I love him). “Laboratory Life” and “Science in Action” are great reads imo.
I’m not sure recommending Popper to someone who has never studied philosophy, and who is reading on their own, is a good idea … I would probably start with a small intro to philosophy book like Blackburn’s Think and then try to find lectures or resources that help teach Popper, rather than just diving into source material with no guidance.
Popper is important, but I don’t think he is commonly seen to have solved the problem of induction … he made an attempt, but that’s a different story.
Excellent points! And yes, that’s why I said he proposed that he solved the problem of induction.
sorry, I conflated what you said about falsifiability being the most popular framework with thinking he did solve the problem of induction, lol - I had just woken up when I responded to you, my apologies 😅
Popper is great, also recommend Hilary Putnam’s “The ‘Corroboration’ of Theories” on Popper. I admittedly adore Putnam, but it’s a nice overview of Popper’s view of induction and its problems.
Thomas Kuhn (The Structure of Scientific Revolutions) and his idea of paradigm shifts is also worth mentioning here, and Kuhn comes up in Putnam’s chapter, too.
yes, though the facts and studies they link to remain true regardless - this is the strongest argument for getting a philosophy degree, it makes sense they present it
Learned CS/Coding at school, ended up with a factory job in manufacturing.
The meme is right, it is a pretty balling existence all things considered
I’m not kidding I studied philosophy and now genuinely work in a factory as a mechanic. I’ve made it big according to this.
I majored in Philosophy and am now a commercial HVAC mechanic. 🤷
I have a degree in philosophy and I draw PowerPoint decks for other nerds to use and turn into data platforms that I used to build myself…
What type of qualification ment that you could get a job as a mechanic? Was it the philosophy?
a lot of jobs dont need qualifications. just basic knowledge and a willingness to learn is enough. esp for a small company.
A philosophy degree might actually stand out more in today’s job market than a CS one.
I wasn’t sure if you meant Computer Science or Cyber Security. Then I remembered it doesn’t matter.
CS is Computer Science, Cyber Security is abbreviated as CyberSecs, Google it
asl?
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
“
RhinosColleges don’t play, they freaking charge your ass.”I cast magic missile at the darkness!
I have a masters in cybersecurity, and I see some people abbreviating is as CS sometimes, and it always bothers me. CS = Computer Science
I too have seen it on occasion. But in the current market you’re best putting “Masters in C.S. from Standford” and hoping they interpret that to mean Cock Sucking. A significantly more stable and currently higher paying field.
It’s not quite the same thing, but reminds me of Sillicon Valley when
Spoiler
The blood boy has a degree in calisthenics studies and abbreviates it as CS
Coming soon, C.S. degrees from Trump University
Cock Sucking, the most stable, highest paying field in this economy. Enroll Today!
Dual credit classes available to highschool students at scenic Maralago
My kids will get a degree in prompt engineering.
I was a dual major Electrical Engineering/Philosophy. The rigorous logic in some branches of philosophy was very helpful for programming principles. And the the philosophy of mathematics and philosophy of mind has overlaps with and supplements modern AI theory pretty well.
I’m out of the tech world now but if I were hiring entry level software developers, I’d consider a philosophy degree to be a plus, at least for people who have the threshold competency in actual programming.
Yeah, the CS head at the small college I went to was also the Philosophy head (he got his doctorate in philosophy). The same formal logic class was a requirement for the CS, philosophy, and law degrees.
Most of my programming career was spent working for small consulting firms that created custom software for (relatively) small clients. The most important skill by far was the ability to talk to customers (and listen to them as well) in order to understand what they needed the custom software to actually do. Not only is this skill not taught in the Computer Science curriculum, it’s not even conceived of as a thing. My bosses were constantly hiring freshly-minted CS grads and could not understand why I rejected having them placed on my team. I instead always looked for people that had experience not just with programming but with things outside of the programming world entirely.
That being said, I sure would not have wanted a freshly-minted philosophy grad either, for the same reason.
That’s something I hope to bring to the table as a digital artist someday.
I already know there’s plenty of hyper-introverted socially awkward artists who could absolutely flatten what I can do ability-wise, but I feel very comfortable empathizing, speaking up, working in teams, and figuring people out. I hope that’s seen as an asset some time.
But for now, I aim to just do it for myself, and talk too much. :)
That “might” is doing some heavy load.
my boss got mad when trying to use the “Socratic method” on a project that I was contradicting them and questioning their every statement
?!?!?!!?
Going to college purely for a career is a hell of a gamble and the most likely positive outcomes are in fields where everyone fucking hates you (business majors, etc).
Go to improve yourself. Learn all you are interested in. Experience new things. For most jobs, nobody cares what your major is anyway. They care that you can focus on a long term goal and achieve it and a college degree demonstrates that.
Going to college purely for a career is a hell of a gamble
Sure, but it’s a gamble that everyone tries to tell you is a sure thing in your youth, and they pile immense pressure on you to do. Maybe things have changed recently, but it hasn’t been all that long since I was in high school, in the grand scheme of things, and I remember how you were basically treated like the world’s biggest idiot if you didn’t plan on going on to get a university degree. Maybe the only exception was if you were going to join the military, with the understanding you were doing so in order to get a degree on the cheap when you finished.
I think everyone who wants to do so, and who has put in the work to be at the appropriate level academically, should have the opportunity go and study at university, but I also believe that the vast majority of people have no need to do so, and ultimately will not benefit from it. Unfortunately, modern society treats universities not as institutes of education and monuments to the pursuit of knowledge, but as glorified vocational schools. It seems largely to be at the impetus of companies who have decided to externalize any training costs onto potential hires, substituting any sort of on the job training for “Did they check the box that says they have a degree?”
In the past 30 years, I’ve seen massive changes in how companies operate just by watching the sort of jobs my father could get. When I was a kid, he could get hired on with nothing more than “I like computers, I’ll actually read the whole manual for the system I’m working on, and I understand there’s a 6 month probation period to see if I actually do that.” for jobs that he would be summarily screened out for today, despite having successfully done in the past.
Like, don’t get me wrong, he’s dumb as hell in a lot of ways, but I’ve still seen extra stupid stuff in his career trajectory that reflects this. I recall him being fired because he got an IT job at Ernst & Young that he’d been successfully doing for years, because they suddenly said “Everyone doing this job needs to have a degree and the following certifications, and if you don’t have them and do this job now, you need to get them ASAP and reinterview for your role.”
Looking down on manufacturing jobs is so cool.
How else are you supposed to look at conveyor belt?
With desire.
ಠ_ಠ
I didn’t need to read that
I wonder if we can rival XKCD.
‘There’s a Darwin Award for that’
These two things can exist in harmony.
everyone looks down on people they feel are social inferior to them.
job, education, grammar, race, sex, take your pick.
job, education, grammar, race, sex, take your pick.
I’m gonna go with “calf muscles”.
Then the cyclists and marathon runners can actually get some respect to make up for the free time they lost to training.
I dunno, I used to have seriously monster calves until I started heavy cycling and running. They’re still OK but they definitely shrunk after I lost 30-40 pounds.
This simple statement encapsulates a lot about what has been going on in the world for the last 50 years. Or even since the Industrial Revolution. And explains a lot about “why Trump” and also a lot about why Trump will fail (not before tearing us all down first.)
Is that Mandy Patinken?
This is a funny meme but biotechnology manufacturing is big worldwide and needs STEM degrees for entry level
Philosophy major now running an IT department at a major university checking in
Philosophy major Senior Software engineer.
🫡 Majors …
